Height barriers - an infringment on our Human Rights?

 
 
 
 
 
 
Ally
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Height barriers - an infringment on our Human Rights?

 ·  Posted: 20.10.2016  ·  #1
Some discussion in THIS topic about height barriers, but it requires it's own topic as it is a different issue entirely.

There is work going on from different parties, I am not sure what Motorcarvanningireland are doing but some from Motorhomecraic have started negotiations with Newry & Down Council about how they affect Motorhome tourism.

Also there has been great work by Andy Strangeway in Scotland and I believe he is now working on England, there is another website which campaigns in England, I'll look for it later.

There is also our French Counterparts, someone will need to point me in the direction of their website, whom are campaigning and having success in removing height barriers.
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Re: Height barriers - an infringment on our Human Rights?

 ·  Posted: 20.10.2016  ·  #2
In The South under Road Traffic Act, 1961 a 'car park' is defined as a place (not being part of a public road) for the parking of mechanically propelled vehicles
Section 101 Paragraph 7 (a) says
A local authority may make bye-laws as to the use of any car park provided by them under this section, and, in particular, in relation to all or any of the following matters:
(a) restricting the classes of vehicles which may be admitted to the car park;

A Motrohome is in the same vehicle category/class as a car.

To deny access to motorhomes to car parks it would be necessary for Councils to make a specific Bye-law specifying motor caravans as a distinct class of vehicle restricted from using the car park.
To fulfil the requirement, that traffic management bye-laws must be based on a proven requirement to address traffic management or road safety issues it is unlikely that such a requirement could be satisfied.
Therefore if there is no bye-law applicable to a particular car park which restricts the parking of motor caravans in particular, or vehicles over a certain height, it must follow that the placement of a height barrier represents an unlawful action.

Regrettably, unlike in France there is nobody here who has the resources or willing to provide such to legally challenge the status quo in the courts.
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Re: Height barriers - an infringment on our Human Rights?

 ·  Posted: 20.10.2016  ·  #3
I think it's time that we (i.e.)Motorhome owners send letters to our local councils and tell them that they are looking at human rights issues by not letting m/h parking on council run parks as we pay our taxes rates and insurance and that we are no different from cars,I for one will be sending a email to down district council and see what they come back with
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Re: Height barriers - an infringment on our Human Rights?

 ·  Posted: 20.10.2016  ·  #4
Have just emailed dcc let's see what they come back with
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Re: Height barriers - an infringment on our Human Rights?

 ·  Posted: 20.10.2016  ·  #5
When emailing Co.Co's. I would ask them for a copy of the relevant Bye-law specifying that motor caravans or any other type of vehicle over a specified height are prohibited from using the car park. I would also ask them to specify the issue which required the bye-law to be enacted.
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Re: Height barriers - an infringment on our Human Rights?

 ·  Posted: 20.10.2016  ·  #6
Take Salthill for instance,how many letters and e mails were sent to Galway Co Co over the years to remove the no parking of campers on the public road 24/7, there still up. 🇧🇭
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Re: Height barriers - an infringment on our Human Rights?

 ·  Posted: 20.10.2016  ·  #7
Quote by TAYLOR.

Take Salthill for instance,how many letters and e mails were sent to Galway Co Co over the years to remove the no parking of campers on the public road 24/7, there still up. 🇧🇭


Yet there are lorries parked there.

We need to go and park there, let it go to court if it even does and then see were that takes it.
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Re: Height barriers - an infringment on our Human Rights?

 ·  Posted: 20.10.2016  ·  #8
The barriers where put up to stop the traveling community from parking up if they ever find that the t /c have set up camp then it's up to the psni to move them on that's why we pay them there is some difference between 2 or 3 motorhomes than transit vans with caravans and horse boxes surly the pnsi can tell the difference between the two but then again? Can they
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Re: Height barriers - an infringment on our Human Rights?

 ·  Posted: 20.10.2016  ·  #9
That would be discrimination.
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Re: Height barriers - an infringment on our Human Rights?

 ·  Posted: 20.10.2016  ·  #10
How many travelers pay road tax insurance when they tried to park up in howth and the police arrived they where gone in minutes?
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Re: Height barriers - an infringment on our Human Rights?

 ·  Posted: 20.10.2016  ·  #11
Ps is it not also discrimination against Motorhome owners to keep use out
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Re: Height barriers - an infringment on our Human Rights?

 ·  Posted: 25.10.2016  ·  #12
Quote by Douzeper

Quote by TAYLOR.

Take Salthill for instance,how many letters and e mails were sent to Galway Co Co over the years to remove the no parking of campers on the public road 24/7, there still up. 🇧🇭


Yet there are lorries parked there.

We need to go and park there, let it go to court, if it even does, and then see where that takes it.



Action?

I'll do it here in NI if anyone can think of a place. Anyone prepared to park in Salthill and let it go to court? we could create a crowd funding revenue to fight it??

But I/We doubt it will go that far, and if it does we would win. Posts 2 & 5 from Baguette state reasons why.

So where in NI needs challenged?
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Re: Height barriers - an infringment on our Human Rights?

 ·  Posted: 25.10.2016  ·  #13
I spoke to the Garda in salthill and asked if i parked my MH there and went for a walk along the prom,would i get a parking ticket,her reply was she had no intention of giving a parking ticket to me.
Im sure if she was told to do it she would have to.
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Re: Height barriers - an infringment on our Human Rights?

 ·  Posted: 25.10.2016  ·  #14
Quote by TAYLOR.

I spoke to the Garda in salthill and asked if i parked my MH there and went for a walk along the prom,would i get a parking ticket,her reply was she had no intention of giving a parking ticket to me.
Im sure if she was told to do it she would have to.


So the next question, why not do it then? :) - Start it off, prove a point. Or if you don't wish too, someone else?

I'm prepared to do it local to me.
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Re: Height barriers - an infringment on our Human Rights?

 ·  Posted: 25.10.2016  ·  #15
I may be missing something here but, how can you park in a car park which has height barriers when you cant get the motorhome through them!
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Re: Height barriers - an infringment on our Human Rights?

 ·  Posted: 25.10.2016  ·  #16
Quote by the fat controller

I may be missing something here but, how can you park in a car park which has height barriers when you cant get the motorhome through them!


This was in reference to Salthill, which has no height barriers as it is a promenade.

Another thread needed?
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Re: Height barriers - an infringment on our Human Rights?

 ·  Posted: 25.10.2016  ·  #17
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Re: Height barriers - an infringment on our Human Rights?

 ·  Posted: 25.10.2016  ·  #18
This is public road which has vans, buses, trucks,cars,cars with trailers,and caravans.but its against the law to STOP never mind park your MH.
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Re: Height barriers - an infringment on our Human Rights?

 ·  Posted: 25.10.2016  ·  #19
I asked down district counsel why I was not aloud to park my m/h in the park between Newcastle and dundrum as I pay my tex insurance rates and was the height barrier an infringement on my human rights still waiting on an answer
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Re: Height barriers - an infringment on our Human Rights?

 ·  Posted: 25.10.2016  ·  #20
Quote by TAYLOR.

This is public road which has vans, buses, trucks,cars,cars with trailers,and caravans.but its against the law to STOP never mind park your MH.


but against what law I wonder?

I like the argument about classes of vehicles to be honest, but I think you would need a good lawyer to fight the "Human Rights" argument .. European Convention on Human Rights has a section on freedom of movement. I am not sure how you would fight it though. You would need first to see the bye law that says you cannot park there. Maybe a request to the local county council requesting the bye law that enables the "no motorhomes" sign to be erected.
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Re: Height barriers - an infringment on our Human Rights?

 ·  Posted: 25.10.2016  ·  #21
Quote by Pablo

Quote by TAYLOR.

This is public road which has vans, buses, trucks,cars,cars with trailers,and caravans.but its against the law to STOP never mind park your MH.


but against what law I wonder?

I like the argument about classes of vehicles to be honest, but I think you would need a good lawyer to fight the "Human Rights" argument .. European Convention on Human Rights has a section on freedom of movement. I am not sure how you would fight it though. You would need first to see the bye law that says you cannot park there. Maybe a request to the local county council requesting the bye law that enables the "no motorhomes" sign to be erected.


If they allow one class of vehicle and not others then Article 14 Prohibition of Discrimination applies.This is backed by protocol 12 Article 1 "Article 1 – General prohibition of discrimination.
1 The enjoyment of any right set forth by law shall be secured without discrimination on any ground such as sex, race, colour, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, association with a national minority, property, birth or other status.
2 No one shall be discriminated against by any public authority on any ground such as those mentioned in paragraph 1.

Unlike Article 14 of the Convention itself, the prohibition of discrimination in Protocol 12 is not limited to enjoying only those rights provided by the Convention.
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Re: Height barriers - an infringment on our Human Rights?

 ·  Posted: 25.10.2016  ·  #22
Many Councils rely on the LOCAL GOVERNMENT (SANITARY SERVICES) ACT, 1948, and Galway is one of them, to deny motorhomes the right to park, they cite Part 4, section 31 which states (1) A sanitary authority may by order prohibit the erection or retention of temporary dwellings on any land or water in their sanitary district if they are of opinion that such erection or retention would be prejudicial to public health or the amenities of the locality or would interfere to an unreasonable extent with traffic on any road.

However, as can be seen from the wording of the Act as to do with sanitation and public health issues and totally irrelevant to a modern self contained motorhome.

Section 69 of The Roads Act, 1993 is also sometimes quoted, it says, (1) (a) Any person who without lawful authority erects, places or retains a temporary dwelling on a national road, motorway, busway or protected road shall be guilty of an offence.
(b) Any person who without lawful authority or the consent of a road authority erects, places or retains a temporary dwelling on any other prescribed road or prescribed class, subclass or type of road shall be guilty of an offence.

It can be seen from that wording that it cannot be applied to motorhomes which are entitled, as taxed and insured vehicles, to be 'placed' on the road and have full use of it. Again as in the Section 31 of the Local Government (Sanitary Services) Act, 1948, Section 69 of The Roads Act, 1993 has no relevance to motorhomes
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Re: Height barriers - an infringment on our Human Rights?

 ·  Posted: 27.10.2016  ·  #23
Reply from down district council,dear mr watson, thank you for your email ,I am sorry that you where unable to avail to the facilities on the dundrum rd due to the nature of the vehicle you were in. over the years council has had issues at various sites wherein numbers of travellers have occupied sites,council therefore hight barriers have been installed to ensure these facilities do not suffer such issues going forward ,to cut a long letter short she said that there where other parks in Newcastle which i could visit and hoped that I understood why the barriers are up she also stated at the park would also be open for me if I where in a smaller vehicle
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Re: Height barriers - an infringment on our Human Rights?

 ·  Posted: 27.10.2016  ·  #24
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Re: Height barriers - an infringment on our Human Rights?

 ·  Posted: 27.10.2016  ·  #25
Seems so but also against m/h owners,but I must admit there caught between the devil and the deep blue sea ,i.e. Let us in let the travelers in but I still think the pnsi have a roll to play in this surely if they are passing they can tell the difference between 1 or 2 camper vans than a loan of travelers
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Re: Height barriers - an infringment on our Human Rights?

 ·  Posted: 27.10.2016  ·  #26
To be honest I dont think it matters wether its travellers or motorhomers, we are being discriminated against by being treated unfairly just the same way travellers are, and per the HRA the council is breaking the law.

We need the equality commission on board as they have deep pockets to fund these sorts of cases, the Bert&Ernie cake is a prime example.
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motor home parking Sanitary Services

 ·  Posted: 27.10.2016  ·  #27
I am replying to the responsibilities regarding the provision of sanitary services. Baguette has suggested in a previous thread that the local authorities are quoting this act to prevent motorhome parking. The local councils are no longer responsible for sanitary services this responsibility now lies with Irish Water they are now the relative authority for water and waste water service provision. The local councils are only operating the service's under service level agreements for Irish Water Perhaps Irish Water should be contacted for clarification. I am sure that no further bad press would please them.

Regards,

Chalkey 🇧🇭
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parking and camping

 ·  Posted: 27.10.2016  ·  #28
I would also like to say that i would have no problems with members of the traveling community parking motor homes in areas designed for the parking of vehicles. This is a totally different situation than that of setting up encampments comprising of caravans. The french police are very quick to deal with this why are our own police not able to do the same is it a matter of funding???
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Re: Height barriers - an infringment on our Human Rights?

 ·  Posted: 27.10.2016  ·  #29
Height barriers are an easy option and a bit of a cop-out for district councils. If instead of a barrier they had a sign stating a prohibition e.g (no vehicle over 2metres allowed) then they would have to state the relevant bye-law and the reasons for this. It would then be open to challenge. Just like a lot of the "No campers/motorhomes, overnight parking" etc signs that are erected by local traders without planning permission on common land and public areas they have no basis in law. It's also why most people ignore them.
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Re: Height barriers - an infringment on our Human Rights?

 ·  Posted: 27.10.2016  ·  #30
There are other categories of motorists who are denied access to parking areas too.
People who drive SUV's with a roof box on top. People with large people carriers like the Ford transit Tourneo. :(

And don't forget those motorhomers with car/van based pop tops who are not one bit discommoded by height barriers :-)

Anti-social behaviour in a public place such as littering,accumulating scrap metal, uncontrolled animals etc. can all be tackled under existing laws.
Perhaps the height barriers could be added to the scrap heap, it's where they belong because there is no law underpinning the denial of access which the cause.
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Re: Height barriers - an infringment on our Human Rights?

 ·  Posted: 28.10.2016  ·  #31
Quote by baguette

...
Perhaps the height barriers could be added to the scrap heap, it's where they belong because there is no law underpinning the denial of access which the cause.


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Re: Height barriers - an infringment on our Human Rights?

 ·  Posted: 28.10.2016  ·  #32
Quote by baguette

There are other categories of motorists who are denied access to parking areas too.
People who drive SUV's with a roof box on top. People with large people carriers like the Ford transit Tourneo. :(

And don't forget those motorhomers with car/van based pop tops who are not one bit discommoded by height barriers :-)

Anti-social behaviour in a public place such as littering,accumulating scrap metal, uncontrolled animals etc. can all be tackled under existing laws.
Perhaps the height barriers could be added to the scrap heap, it's where they belong because there is no law underpinning the denial of access which the cause.


Also disabled people who have chair toppers on the roof (a roof box that picks up the wheel chair and stores it) :'(
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Re: Height barriers - an infringment on our Human Rights?

 ·  Posted: 28.10.2016  ·  #33
I have emailed down district council again stating that I still think we were discriminated against and I think I should get in touch with the equality commission to see what they say I will do this come mon morning
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Re: Height barriers - an infringment on our Human Rights?

 ·  Posted: 28.10.2016  ·  #34
I got a reply from dcc I will post it all tomorrow as it's late now but wait to you read this
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Re: Height barriers - an infringment on our Human Rights?

 ·  Posted: 01.11.2016  ·  #35
This is the reply that I got from DCC dear mr watson thank you for your response,I'm sorry that you feel discriminated against.that most certainly is not the intention of the council or its action. While the height barriers provide a clear visual indication,I fully accept your assertion that there is no signage in the park that indicates Motorhome are not allowed to use the facility on the dundrum rd in respect of revenue your rates do provide revenue that the council can offer these facilities. However in terms of accessing this facility both you and your grandchildren are more than welcome to do so,it is just that large vehicles cannot enter as I have previously explained to you.while I personally would advise against it,it is possible to park on the hard shoulder outside the park and enter on foot so I don't believe the council is decriminating against you.never the less I am sorry that you feel discriminated against,but I do believe that there is anything that the council can do to address that in this particular instance
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Re: Height barriers - an infringment on our Human Rights?

 ·  Posted: 01.11.2016  ·  #36
Quote by hillton9

but I do believe that there is anything that the council can do to address that in this particular instance


Well there obviously is, remove the height barrier!
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Re: Height barriers - an infringment on our Human Rights?

 ·  Posted: 01.11.2016  ·  #37
Quote
while I personally would advise against it,it is possible to park on the hard shoulder outside the park and enter on foot


So not only did they confirm that they discriminate against the travelling community, they now are asking you to possibly breach what would be a health and safety issue!

Why provide a car park when you cant use it, would you close it off altogether so everyone is treated similarly?

Surely hard shoulders are not for parking on, they are to be used in emergencies only (i.e. breakdown)
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Re: Height barriers - an infringment on our Human Rights?

 ·  Posted: 01.11.2016  ·  #38
If a disabled person with a large ford with a wheelchair carrier on the roof could not enter the park would they be asked to park on the hardsholder and go in on there wheelchair ,I'm thinking of putting this question to dcc what do you all think.
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Re: Height barriers - an infringment on our Human Rights?

 ·  Posted: 01.11.2016  ·  #39
I think you should but to also ask why should you endanger your children/grandchildren in this manner, highlghting that if it was their employees they would not be allowed to park there under health and safety regulations. Perhaps also highlight what the council can do i.e. remove the height barriers, after all they have admitted in writing to you that they installed them to keep out members of the travelling community which is discriminiation under the HRA Article 14 protocol 12.
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Barriers

 ·  Posted: 22.11.2016  ·  #40
HI.
Is it possible for someone with the right background and frame of mind to come up with a standard letter we all can use so as a group we can make representation to councils and local authorities about barriers and also get them thinking about Airs in the areas where it might be nice to stop. especially now that there is so much talk about Wilde Ways.

The craic map stopover places are great but wouldn't a system like France Passion be super to have in this country.

Its has gotten very very cold in the van.
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