Engine loosing power

 
 
 
 
 
 
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Engine loosing power

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Posted: 11.08.2019  ·  #1
We have lost engine power twice over our last two weekends away whilst driving. What a horrible sinking feeling to be coasting along and then to realize the engine has cut out.

In the first instance we were traveling over hilly passes in low gears on a hot day. In the second instance, we were traveling on a motorway in normal temperatures. In both cases engine revs were high for long periods of time if that is relevant. Higher than normal driving anyway, but not exceeding 3,000 RPM. And in both cases engine looses power and we come to a stop with the engine stop dash warning light illuminated as in the attached pic. No other warning lights are on.

Then sitting for a couple of minutes, it is a little slow to restart the engine but it does eventually restart and we get to complete our journey smoothly, with no obvious signs of trouble.

Any thoughts?

 


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Re: Engine loosing power

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Posted: 11.08.2019  ·  #2
Need more info?

Make/model
Year
Engine type/cc


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Re: Engine loosing power

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Posted: 11.08.2019  ·  #3
Did You go on any Renault forum with your question, Jason? (it is a Renault Master or Opel/ Vauxhall equivalent isn't it?) I find the forums great. I had a similar problem with a Rover 620D years ago it could stall for no reason and I discovered if I lifted my leg off the accelerator and pressed it again it would drive fine again, I put up with this for years, no one could fix it until one day it stopped up completely and then I discovered where the problem was. there was a wiring loom clipped on to the engine with a plug and socket in the middle of it, it turned out there was a bad connection in the plug and socket type connector and the car would stall when the connection was lost and when I pulled back on the accelerator the engine would move a little and make connection again and the car would resume power.


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Re: Engine loosing power

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Posted: 11.08.2019  ·  #4
Master/vivaro/interstar/movano are all basically the same. Need to run it on proper diagnosis equipment to get a proper heads-up.
Does the engine come to a complete stop? Or go back to idle?
A few issues spring to mind, although really need to investigate fully.
From your explanation of the problem it may be

1. Temperature sensor
2. Cam/crank sensor
3. Injector breaking down under temperature.

From memory there is a lift pump in the tank that also gives problems on those, you’ll actually see the wires where it goes into the pump burned !........ and it is inside the fuel tank !


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Re: Engine loosing power

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Posted: 11.08.2019  ·  #5
Sorry, I thought all that info was in my side profile but the year is missing. 2006 Opel Movano 2.5 CDTi, which is essentially a rebadged Renault Master.

I do feel like the problem might be electrical in nature all right Pat. So from my preliminary searches so far I see talk about relays and looms being the culprit in similar cases, and having spent a fortune replacing injectors, and filters etc. to find out in many cases. I’d rather do my own research first before bringing it to a garage. Intermittent problems are usually the hardest and most expensive to deal with in my opinion.


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Re: Engine loosing power

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Posted: 11.08.2019  ·  #6
Quote by JJF

Master/vivaro/interstar/movano are all basically the same. Need to run it on proper diagnosis equipment to get a proper heads-up.
Does the engine come to a complete stop? Or go back to idle?
A few issues spring to mind, although really need to investigate fully.
From your explanation of the problem it may be

1. Temperature sensor
2. Cam/crank sensor
3. Injector breaking down under temperature.

From memory there is a lift pump in the tank that also gives problems on those, you’ll actually see the wires where it goes into the pump burned !........ and it is inside the fuel tank !


I had posted before I saw this reply Jon. So, yes the engine stops completely. Do you think a diagnostic will pin point the problem? But if there are any obvious checks I can do, I will.


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Re: Engine loosing power

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Posted: 11.08.2019  ·  #7
Quote by The Rambler

Quote by JJF

Master/vivaro/interstar/movano are all basically the same. Need to run it on proper diagnosis equipment to get a proper heads-up.
Does the engine come to a complete stop? Or go back to idle?
A few issues spring to mind, although really need to investigate fully.
From your explanation of the problem it may be

1. Temperature sensor
2. Cam/crank sensor
3. Injector breaking down under temperature.

From memory there is a lift pump in the tank that also gives problems on those, you’ll actually see the wires where it goes into the pump burned !........ and it is inside the fuel tank !


I had posted before I saw this reply Jon. So, yes the engine stops completely. Do you think a diagnostic will pin point the problem? But if there are any obvious checks I can do, I will.


From experience Jason the diagnostic computer only “points” you in the general direction.... if it throws up a sensor fault our first port of call is to check everything connecting the sensor to the ECU, grounds, fuse box etc...... we see many folk getting cars “plugged in” and then chucking a few hundred euro at parts on the weight of a fault code that hasn’t been investigated properly and find out that does not solve the issue.
From your explanation I’ve suggested the sensors that will cause this, but in reality it needs to be diagnosed properly.... and you’re 100% right, an intermittent fault can be very tricky to find although with proper diagnosis we can find historic codes that the ECU saves which can assist repair and also data logging while driving it can show up concerns,


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Engine loosing power

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Posted: 11.08.2019  ·  #8
I think there is an Air-Mass Meter on that. if so I would have a look in that direction, on my Peugeot van traveling down the motorway it would just die out under constant rev, if I unplugged the electric block, it then it would drive away grand, the fault was caused by a leaf being sucked against the meter grill because the Mechanic took the main air filter out to get a part number and did not replace it.
google this Renault Trafic DCI 2006 MAF Sensor Change - Vivaro and Primastar and see if you have same. pull the pipes off and check if it's clean.


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Re: Engine loosing power

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Posted: 11.08.2019  ·  #9
I will look into that Martin.

So I comes across a thread to do with some guys 06 Movano cutting out while driving. He eventually figures the problem is sorted having spent a lot of money fixing nearly everything else that didn’t need fixing.

ok thanks to avant who said it was electrical

finally after paying different people for cleaning out fuel filters and the tank, replacing fuel regulator, changing injectors, changing diesel pump, fuel pump and fuel rail sensors, and spending a fortune on parts and labour. and after all that ,the fault continued and made no difference to my fault of driving along, engine cuts out ,turn key off and on again and the van just carried on as if nothing had happened , just got it back from ridlers at dulverton and hopefully they are 99.9 %sure they have fixed it , i drove it back and touch wood they have fixed it no cut out , they found an electrical fault the engine management relay was playing up getting very hot ,and a fault in the loom, they also changed at my request the crankshaft sensor so ,everyone who has the same problem get them checked before you spend a fortune like me ,cheers


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Re: Engine loosing power

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Posted: 12.08.2019  ·  #10
Quote by sprinter

I think there is an Air-Mass Meter on that. if so I would have a look in that direction...


I don’t see any sensor Sprinter.

 


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Re: Engine loosing power

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Posted: 12.08.2019  ·  #11
Quote by The Rambler

Quote by sprinter

I think there is an Air-Mass Meter on that. if so I would have a look in that direction...


I don’t see any sensor Sprinter.

 



Put the reg of it into Micks Garage or Mister Auto 's site and see if there is a sensor listed for it


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Re: Engine loosing power

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Posted: 12.08.2019  ·  #12
Good thinking Pat. But now I’m confused. Firstly, under “Air intake Temperature Sender Units”, Micks Garage says “Sorry part temporarily unavailable”. Is it really temporarily unavailable or is it actually permanently unavailable because there isn’t one? And Mister Auto does indeed list one. See pic. I don’t have that sensor. I even removed the hose clip and ducting earlier to have a look in. .?.?

 


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Re: Engine loosing power

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Posted: 12.08.2019  ·  #13
Well I just watched a couple of YouTube videos on changing out your MAF sensors on a 2006 Movano CDTi. I can only conclude that since I don’t have one, then it cannot be the source of my problem. It makes me wonder it it once had one, it caused trouble and was omitted rather than replaced. ??


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Re: Engine loosing power

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Posted: 12.08.2019  ·  #14
Jason, modern systems can run with MAF (mass air flow) or a MAP (manifold absolute pressure) sensor, one or the other.
If you look at the inlet manifold you should see it, three wire multi-plug usually and generally held in with a small retaining screw.
Similar to this.

 


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Re: Engine loosing power

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Posted: 12.08.2019  ·  #15
I had the same problem with a V6 Rover engine stopped completely leave it for a hr or so and it would start again AA man said classic crank sensor fault on that model. Replaced it and all OK


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Engine loosing power

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Posted: 12.08.2019  ·  #16
Jason if you have looked in at each end where the hose is fitted if you had one you should have seen a mesh grid with a sensor in the center .
Our merc has pressure and tempt sensors on the inlet pipes from the intercooler to the manifold.
They can give similar faults ,but don't normally kill the engine.


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Re: Engine loosing power

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Posted: 13.08.2019  ·  #17
Quote by sprinter

They can give similar faults ,but don't normally kill the engine.


That’s the thing. I saw a YouTube video of a guy who’s Movano’s engine juddered. He pulled the harness to the MAF sensor and the juddering went away, but it did not kill the engine. But I also watched a video where a different guy pulled the harness and the engine stalled straight away. Much more similar to my situation in that scenario but his was not a Movano.

So I’m on the look out for anything that can stall the engine immediately, without any juddering. So anything that causes the engine to labour, poor fuel/ air etc. is probably not where I should be looking. Does that sound reasonable?


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Re: Engine loosing power

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Posted: 13.08.2019  ·  #18
Items in post #4 will cause an engine cut out Jason,


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Re: Engine loosing power

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Posted: 13.08.2019  ·  #19
Quote by JJF

Items in post #4 will cause an engine cut out Jason,


Cheers Jon.

So referring back to those items

1. Temperature sensor
2. Cam/crank sensor
3. Injector breaking down under temperature.

I’m guessing it’s easy replace the first two?? Although I’d prefer to try force the fault to happen again by moving or tapping sensors and harnessing etc. to replicate the fault rather than blindly replacing parts.

The 3rd item sounds like specialist testing.

Is the temperature sensor you refer to the Air Intake temperature?


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Engine loosing power

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Posted: 13.08.2019  ·  #20
Quote by The Rambler

Quote by sprinter

I think there is an Air-Mass Meter on that. if so I would have a look in that direction...


I don’t see any sensor Sprinter.

 



That's where it would be fitted so you do not have , so follow the MAP track.
Google Vauxhall Movano Air Intake & Fuel Sensors,
You will see the various ones fitted check what you have then follow the wiring back look for damage loose connections etc,


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Re: Engine loosing power

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Posted: 13.08.2019  ·  #21
Quote by The Rambler


I’m guessing it’s easy replace the first two?? Although I’d prefer to try force the fault to happen again by moving or tapping sensors and harnessing etc. to replicate the fault rather than blindly replacing parts.

The 3rd item sounds like specialist testing.

Is the temperature sensor you refer to the Air Intake temperature?


I wouldn’t be replacing any Jason without having them pinned out and on an oscilloscope to check their tolerances first.

The temperature sensor will be a CTS (coolant temp sensor) which if faulty and reads an overheat condition will result in the ECU shutting down the engine to protect it. The transits used to have an overheat sensor in the cylinder head (not in coolant) which caused many problems but I think your system has only the CTS type, and there may be more than one of them.

The injection system can have a preliminary check using proper diagnosis gear which should show low fuel pressure or a historic code to that effect. Full diagnosis of diesel systems performed at a specialist once you’ve established that that is the issue.
Many garages only have EOBD/EOBD2 equipment, for detailed diagnosis proper diagnosis gear is required that has the vehicle parameters and ability to probe the systems in depth.... the basic stuff can’t do that.


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Re: Engine loosing power

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Posted: 10.10.2019  ·  #22
Quote by JJF

Quote by The Rambler

Quote by JJF

Master/vivaro/interstar/movano are all basically the same. Need to run it on proper diagnosis equipment to get a proper heads-up.
Does the engine come to a complete stop? Or go back to idle?
A few issues spring to mind, although really need to investigate fully.
From your explanation of the problem it may be

1. Temperature sensor
2. Cam/crank sensor
3. Injector breaking down under temperature.

From memory there is a lift pump in the tank that also gives problems on those, you’ll actually see the wires where it goes into the pump burned !........ and it is inside the fuel tank !


I had posted before I saw this reply Jon. So, yes the engine stops completely. Do you think a diagnostic will pin point the problem? But if there are any obvious checks I can do, I will.


From experience Jason the diagnostic computer only “points” you in the general direction.... if it throws up a sensor fault our first port of call is to check everything connecting the sensor to the ECU, grounds, fuse box etc...... we see many folk getting cars “plugged in” and then chucking a few hundred euro at parts on the weight of a fault code that hasn’t been investigated properly and find out that does not solve the issue.
From your explanation I’ve suggested the sensors that will cause this, but in reality it needs to be diagnosed properly.... and you’re 100% right, an intermittent fault can be very tricky to find although with proper diagnosis we can find historic codes that the ECU saves which can assist repair and also data logging while driving it can show up concerns,


Just an update here on this issue. I eventually dropped the van in to have it looked at yesterday. It has been used many times since the issue last occured without any issues. With that in mind, and with JJF’s advice above I instructed the garage to not spend too much time/money troubleshooting the fault. I’ll take my chances and the handbrake needs doing anyway.

The garage had a look and got back to me to say there is an error code pointing to the fuel rail sensor. A new part will be in the region of €400. I told them not to proceed and just do the handbrake. I knew the fuel rail sensor was not one of the three sensors mentioned above. I get the feeling that I would just be throwing money at parts without the fault being correctly pinpointed, which was pointed out in JJF’s advice as a common occurrence . Besides, the fault occurrence is so uncommon that it might not occur again, who knows.


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Re: Engine loosing power

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Posted: 10.10.2019  ·  #23
Sensors, sensors lieing effing sensors.
I had a problem a few years back, my Volvo S40 D often cut out at traffic lights, roundabouts etc. Main dealer said a sensor indicated low fuel pressure, further investigation indicated the fuel pump was badly worn a new pump and injectors would fix the problems.
Long story short, the sensor was found to be telling lies (faulty) by a different mechanic at an ordinary garage, a replacement second hand one for €70 fixed the problem.


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Re: Engine loosing power

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Posted: 10.10.2019  ·  #24
Yeah how sensors report problems and how those errors are interpreted can be a real cat and mouse. If a fuel sensor reports an error, well maybe it’s doing its job correctly. Maybe the fuel pressure is off. Or maybe the sensor is lying and it is the sensor at fault. We can’t dismiss the technician’s judgement and just have a console tell us which part to replace. Gees even the console could be at fault. Not that I know anything about engines btw, but same applies to electronics etc. My concern would be an inexperienced mechanic who sees a sensor fault and just wants to replace the sensor.


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Re: Engine loosing power

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Posted: 10.10.2019  ·  #25
Quote
My concern would be an inexperienced mechanic who sees a sensor fault and just wants to replace the sensor.


I have found personally that's how main dealers operate, a good local mechanic who knows his stuff far better


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Re: Engine loosing power

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Posted: 10.10.2019  ·  #26
Modern day garages do not have mechanics,they have fitters but call them technicians.
They keep fitting parts untill they find the problem.


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Re: Engine loosing power

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Posted: 10.10.2019  ·  #27
Quote by ntg

Modern day garages do not have mechanics,they have fitters but call them technicians.
They keep fitting parts untill they find the problem.


That’s depressing.


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Re: Engine loosing power

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Posted: 10.10.2019  ·  #28
Quote by The Rambler

Quote by ntg

Modern day garages do not have mechanics,they have fitters but call them technicians.
They keep fitting parts untill they find the problem.


That’s depressing.


Unfortunately I have to agree, I've been told I need parts for a previous car I had and I knew I didn't but diagnostics said I did and main dealer tried to fit them, got the car sorted elsewhere, no parts needed, just in this case a re gas of the air con


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Re: Engine loosing power

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Posted: 11.10.2019  ·  #29
How many would know how to set the dwell angle. I still have the meter for that somewhere in the garage. Also the thing by Gunston that was like a spark plug so you could see how the mixture was in the cylinders


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Re: Engine loosing power

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Posted: 11.10.2019  ·  #30
Has the engine management light been on all of the time? If not, it would seem to be an intermittent fault logged by the fuel rail sensor. The fact you're experiencing this after periods of high load might suggest that there's simply not enough fuel getting to the fuel rail because the sensor is fine most of the time. The fact that it recovers after a short period of rest would also support this.

Two simple things to try...

1. Check the lift pump in the tank, just turn the key to from the off position to the on position in the ignition without turning the engine on, you should be able to hear it, maybe get someone listening down near the tank

2. Change the Fuel Filter, especially if you don't know when this was last done.


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Re: Engine loosing power

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Posted: 11.10.2019  ·  #31
No the engine light extinguished after a restart. Problem is indeed intermittent and quite rare. If it doesn’t start to become more frequent I might never discover what’s behind it. I will try those things out @BM.

Cheers


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Re: Engine loosing power

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Posted: 11.10.2019  ·  #32
Quote by The Rambler

No the engine light extinguished after a restart. Problem is indeed intermittent and quite rare. If it doesn’t start to become more frequent I might never discover what’s behind it. I will try those things out @BM.

Cheers


My money is on the fuel filter if I'm honest, especially if it's not been changed in a while.


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Re: Engine loosing power

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Posted: 11.10.2019  ·  #33
Quote by TommyS

How many would know how to set the dwell angle. I still have the meter for that somewhere in the garage. Also the thing by Gunston that was like a spark plug so you could see how the mixture was in the cylinders

Indeed Tommy. Have a dwell meter kicking about somewhere and have used the “Gunson Colourtune” in the past too, actually quite a good way of setting mixture, blue when lean and yellow if rich..... they were good at finding an air leak on inlet manifolds.


Quote by The Rambler

No the engine light extinguished after a restart. Problem is indeed intermittent and quite rare. If it doesn’t start to become more frequent I might never discover what’s behind it. I will try those things out @BM.

Cheers

Does the engine loose power on hills?... does it go into limp when accelerating up a long incline, a hill? Can you make it do it?..... try accelerating against a hill in say 4th, making it labour, see what happens.... Overboost could cause this and have seen fuel rail sensor faults traced back to MAP/MAF.


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Re: Engine loosing power

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Posted: 11.10.2019  ·  #34
By loosing power I do mean stalling in case there’s confusion. Engine loosing power might suggest it’s still running on reduced power. But it’s only happened twice. Maybe I have changed my driving style since then so as to not push the revs. I’m feeling inclined to keep it that way. In the interest of science and getting to the bottom of it, maybe I should test the engine on an uphill (some day 😕).


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Re: Engine loosing power

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Posted: 11.10.2019  ·  #35
So really, Jason, when you say you are losing power, you mean the engine shuts off completely. If so, I had a Mitsubishi Lancer that used to that when I would turn right more than 90° scary when on a motorway ramp. Never solved, traded it in to where I bought it


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Posted: 11.10.2019  ·  #36
Quote by Daffysparks

So really, Jason, when you say you are losing power, you mean the engine shuts off completely.


I do. I should have named the thread ‘Engine Stalling’ really, even though an engine stall is a particular instance of power loss. Damn semantics. If you can’t say what you mean, then you don’t mean what you say.


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Re: Engine loosing power

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Posted: 11.10.2019  ·  #37
Actually, what you said seemed fine to me, it’s just, as the thread gathered momentum it seemed to drift towards a different scenario. I was just trying to bring it back to it’s origin, as because of my own experience, I am interested in the answer, and there are a lot of very informed individuals on here, ....if we could just keep them on topic, I for one would never drift off topic. 😇. That last bit was a joke btw 😜


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Re: Engine loosing power

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Posted: 11.10.2019  ·  #38
😜 I hear you.

But yes back on topic, I’m inclined to follow JJF’s hunch on the MAP sensor. There is no MAF so we can rule that out. I certainly will not fork out €400 on a fuel rail sensor just because the garage told me the error was from the fuel sensor. The sensor might actually be doing its job correctly.

The fault seems so infrequent now I don’t feel overly concerned. If it happens again I might go source a MAP sensor and replace it myself. I certainly can’t hook up fancy diagnostics and a scope myself.


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Re: Engine loosing power

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Posted: 11.10.2019  ·  #39
Aye, if it’s that infrequent I’d just live with it too


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Re: Engine loosing power

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Posted: 12.10.2019  ·  #40
Quote by The Rambler

Quote by Daffysparks

So really, Jason, when you say you are losing power, you mean the engine shuts off completely.


I do. I should have named the thread ‘Engine Stalling’ really, even though an engine stall is a particular instance of power loss. Damn semantics. If you can’t say what you mean, then you don’t mean what you say.


Anyone who read your first post should understand your problem

" We have lost engine power twice over our last two weekends away whilst driving. What a horrible sinking feeling to be coasting along and then to realize the engine has cut out."


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