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Ally
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Freedom of information

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Posted: 25.04.2019  ·  #1
Ally
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Re: Freedom of information

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Posted: 25.04.2019  ·  #2
A very interesting exchange or should I say verbal fencing. It appears from the council's stance that its thinking is being guided by vested interests who seek to put obstacles in the way of the development of a network of Motorhome Parking Areas for NI.

I have a fundamental issue with the notion expressed vis a vis 'camping'.
I have always argued, and continue to do so, that motorhomes are parked in the same manner as other mechanically vehicles and what goes on inside them is a matter of personal privacy not to be interfered with by the state. For example, could the state ban the playing of music in a vehicle when parked, or consuming food, or playing a musical instrument, playing cards, or any of the innumerable activities, like sleeping which are in themselves inoffensive to the general public outside the vehicle.
As regards sleeping in the vehicle, this activity is a common occurrence across all categories of mechanically propelled vehicles be they cars, coaches, HGV's, etc, there is nothing unique about people sleeping in motorhomes.

The use and acceptance of the use of 'camping' to describe a parked motorhome is most unfortunate and inappropriate. The generally accepted meaning of the term 'camping' is the temporary occupation of a piece of ground to set up a tent or other structure and creation of a 'living space'. It is, for this reason, that motorhome parking areas are reserved solely for the parking of a mechanically propelled vehicle and any external occupation of the space for the deployment of 'camping' related equipment is strictly prohibited, see Cobh and the rest of Europe.

Another source of misunderstanding, which seems to be particular to NI, is the use of the France language descriptor Aire de Service. Aire de Service, when translated to English means a Service Area, a facility distinctly different from an Aire de Stationnement which translates to a Parking Area, parking area NOT a camping area. The facility at Ards should correctly be described as a motorhome parking area with a services area. To illustrate the difference, it is not uncommon for the parking area and service area to be provided at different locations.

The one issue not address or challenged in the exchange between Mr Smith and Ards and North Down Borough Council is the council classifying the parking area at Ards as a 'camping area' subject to The Caravans Act (NI) 1963 Section 21. If the council's position on the matter is to be followed to its logical conclusion the overnight lorry park at Larne Port should also be subject The Caravans Act (NI) 1963 Section 21 because living and sleeping in vehicles also take part there.

Finally, IT'S PARKING NOT CAMPING needs to be shouted from the rooftops. The Caravans Act (NI) 1963 Section 21 my arse.


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Re: Freedom of information

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Posted: 25.04.2019  ·  #3
That all sounds very reasonable Mr Smith Ally. But we need to see this tested in court. If they can be persuaded then your argument is robust and sound. Overnight parking volunteers please?


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Re: Freedom of information

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Posted: 25.04.2019  ·  #4
:D :P ;-) A very well written piece, if I may say so myself :*


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Re: Freedom of information

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Posted: 26.04.2019  ·  #5
Quote by baguette

:D :P ;-) A very well written piece, if I may say so myself :*


Check email 😛😂


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Re: Freedom of information

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Posted: 26.04.2019  ·  #6
 


Ally
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Re: Freedom of information

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Posted: 26.04.2019  ·  #7
Quote by The Rambler

That all sounds very reasonable Mr Smith Ally.


?
Mr Smith seems to be the campsite owner, or perhaps his solicitor.


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Re: Freedom of information

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Posted: 26.04.2019  ·  #8
:up:
Quote by Ally

Quote by baguette

:D :P ;-) A very well written piece, if I may say so myself :*


Check email 😛😂


:up: :up:


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Re: Freedom of information

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Posted: 26.04.2019  ·  #9
Quote by The Rambler

That all sounds very reasonable Mr Smith Ally. But we need to see this tested in court. If they can be persuaded then your argument is robust and sound. Overnight parking volunteers please?


Its going to court, campsite owner versus Council.


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Re: Freedom of information

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Posted: 26.04.2019  ·  #10
Come on Ards and North down, you can beat this just like Cobh was won.


_------------

Threat of legal action to council over camper van parking bay planned for Cobh

Sean O’Riordan
Monday, October 31, 2016
A group representing motorhome owners has jumped to the defence of a municipal district authority threatened with legal action after developing a parking site for camper vans.

Some caravan park owners in the east Cork area took exception to the Cobh-Glanmire Municipal District creating an overnight 30-unit parking bay in Cobh.

But Phoenix Motorhome Club, which has hundreds of members drawn mainly from the Munster region, believes the Cork County Council municipal authority should stick to its guns and retain the parking bay.

Full Story:. https://www.irishexaminer.com/…28232.html


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Re: Freedom of information

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Posted: 26.04.2019  ·  #11
Quote by Ally

Quote by The Rambler

That all sounds very reasonable Mr Smith Ally. But we need to see this tested in court. If they can be persuaded then your argument is robust and sound. Overnight parking volunteers please?


Its going to court, campsite owner versus Council.


Maybe court is the best place for it, get it resolved definitively. Hopefully the campsite owner will leave with a bitter taste and a large bill.

These sites do not facilitate touring motorhomes and will most likely never take a one night booking on a weekend in high season yet they'll do their damnedest to stop us going anywhere else.


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Freedom of information

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Posted: 26.04.2019  ·  #12
Quote by <BM>

Quote by Ally

Quote by The Rambler

That all sounds very reasonable Mr Smith Ally. But we need to see this tested in court. If they can be persuaded then your argument is robust and sound. Overnight parking volunteers please?


Its going to court, campsite owner versus Council.


Maybe court is the best place for it, get it resolved definitively. Hopefully the campsite owner will leave with a bitter taste and a large bill.

These sites do not facilitate touring motorhomes and will most likely never take a one night booking on a weekend in high season yet they'll do their damnedest to stop us going anywhere else.

What are the facilities like on remand I could do with a few weeks bed and bord,save the pension money for a new bike. :D


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Re: Freedom of information

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Posted: 26.04.2019  ·  #13
A lot of court cases, both criminal & civil are decided on case law. Even from other jurisdictions. So the satisfactory outcome from the Cobh case could well be a decisive factor in any NI case.


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Re: Freedom of information

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Posted: 26.04.2019  ·  #14
Quote by Ally

Quote by The Rambler

That all sounds very reasonable Mr Smith Ally. But we need to see this tested in court. If they can be persuaded then your argument is robust and sound. Overnight parking volunteers please?


Its going to court, campsite owner versus Council.


I see what you mean. What I meant was any MH owners that might disobey the council signs and subsequently get taken to court. Could they successfully fight any sanction based on the argument of overnight parking versus camping?


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Re: Freedom of information

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Posted: 26.04.2019  ·  #15
The problem is they are erecting signs which show "no parking between 8pm and 8 am"

Now this seems, without having further knowledge, that the council are running scared.

Why are they erecting signs before the court case?

Will cars that use the bowling club also be stopped?

Will those who wish to walk their dogs be stopped?

Will the signs be enforced?

I am sure someone knows the answers, but I don't.

I repeat and will repeat the same thing: caravansites do not have a monopoly on Motorhome Tourism. The fact that one of them is even taking this to court shows a complete lack of understanding and knowledge of the Motorhome tourist. Again this one is serving their own needs and not those which a moving change in Motorhome tourism throughout Europe requires.

Motorhome tourists in NI are being unfairly treated due to what can only be described as greed and sour grapes.

We have put a letter out to all campsite owners to work with us, not one of them has replied.


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Re: Freedom of information

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Posted: 26.04.2019  ·  #16
It’s small minded mentality. Misguided protectionism. In the long night run it hurts all business, even the objectors. If you own the only cafe or pub on a street, and successfully object to any other cafe or pub opening up, you will never recreate a ‘Quay Street’ like in Galway. Build it and they will come. 🤗


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Re: Freedom of information

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Posted: 26.04.2019  ·  #17
I have been told that the signs will be to stop all vehicles parking between 8pm and 8 am so it will be interesting to see the reaction.
Signs put up in ballywalter and boat yard donaghadee state no overnight sleeping.


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Freedom of information

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Posted: 26.04.2019  ·  #18
So go there put up your silver screens connect your webcam inside and then go the chipper/ restaurant, the pub, make sure that you are recorded in each place and when all is closed up for the night, lock yourself in and watch reruns of Corrie for the night to show in court that you did not sleep. so you can show/ ask in court, how can they prove anyone is sleeping overnight.

If I volunteer will someone bring me food parcels?


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Re: Freedom of information

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Posted: 26.04.2019  ·  #19
Quote by Ally

The problem is they are erecting signs which show "no parking between 8pm and 8 am".....................................


Basically, road legal vehicles may park anywhere on the road, the road includes carparks and other public spaces where vehicles may legally circulate.

Any restrictions on the right to park MUST be shown to be required for safety or traffic control reasons, time limits MUST be shown to be necessary to provide parking bay turnover to facilitate new arrivals.

For "no parking between 8pm and 8 am" to be a legal regulation the lawmaker must demonstrate it is necessary for environmental reasons or for the efficient management of traffic.
Parking restrictions cannot be based on a whim or on spurious grounds.


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Re: Freedom of information

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Posted: 26.04.2019  ·  #20
Best thing we can do as a group is to support the council in the forthcoming court case. I'm happy to attend court if it would help them or perhaps we as a group submit a letter of support. I'm sure the judge would like to see the difference between a caravan, a tent and a Motorhome.


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Re: Freedom of information

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Posted: 26.04.2019  ·  #21
Quote by Mark&Wendy

Best thing we can do as a group is to support the council in the forthcoming court case. I'm happy to attend court if it would help them or perhaps we as a group submit a letter of support. I'm sure the judge would like to see the difference between a caravan, a tent and a Motorhome.


Exactly, happy to go to court also.


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Re: Freedom of information

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Posted: 27.04.2019  ·  #22
Yes, more than happy to go to Court and even bring my Motorhome.


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Re: Freedom of information

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Posted: 27.04.2019  ·  #23
That would be a good idea, we could drive around Newtownards looking for some where to park. Can’t park in car parks as we would be over the marked boxes. A friend in a van (working van)had 2 tickets and still got booked. Even lost appeal.


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Freedom of information

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Posted: 27.04.2019  ·  #24
Quote by Mark&Wendy

The best thing we can do as a group is to support the council in the forthcoming court case. I'm happy to attend court if it would help them or perhaps we as a group submits a letter of support. I'm sure the judge would like to see the difference between a caravan, a tent and a Motorhome.


How about putting up a Tent with everything needed to camp overnight, in front Of a Caravan hitched to a Car and all in front of a Motorhome and a Campervan. parked outside the court, so no one going in will be in any dought as to what is what.
As an afterthought but the Tent on a flat trailer and convoy, the whole lot slowly around the court while the case is going on?


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Re: Freedom of information

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Posted: 27.04.2019  ·  #25
Quote by sprinter

So go there put up your silver screens connect your webcam inside and then go the chipper/ restaurant, the pub, make sure that you are recorded in each place and when all is closed up for the night, lock yourself in and watch reruns of Corrie for the night to show in court that you did not sleep. so you can show/ ask in court, how can they prove anyone is sleeping overnight.

If I volunteer will someone bring me food parcels?


That has to be one of the most ridiculous suggestions I have heard in a long time. Are you for real? Corrie? If you’re pulling an overnighted it has to Game of Thrones!


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Re: Freedom of information

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Posted: 27.04.2019  ·  #26
Can we stay on topic please.


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Re: Freedom of information

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Posted: 27.04.2019  ·  #27
I have asked for an update to new date of court case, will keep informed


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Re: Freedom of information

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Posted: 27.04.2019  ·  #28
Quote by The Rambler

Quote by sprinter

So go there put up your silver screens connect your webcam inside and then go the chipper/ restaurant, the pub, make sure that you are recorded in each place and when all is closed up for the night, lock yourself in and watch reruns of Corrie for the night to show in court that you did not sleep. so you can show/ ask in court, how can they prove anyone is sleeping overnight.

If I volunteer will someone bring me food parcels?


That has to be one of the most ridiculous suggestions I have heard in a long time. Are you for real? Corrie? If you’re pulling an overnighted it has to Game of Thrones!


Scenario 1
Plod knocks on a mh door at 1.00am, no answer and all blinds closed.
How does plod provide evidence to a court that he/she observed a person committing the offence of sleeping inside?

Scenario 2
Plod knocks on a mh door at 1.00am, door politely opened after all inside are awake.
How does plod provide evidence to a court that he/she observed the person who opened the door or the other occupants committing the offence of sleeping inside?


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Re: Freedom of information

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Posted: 27.04.2019  ·  #29
Scenario 3,, plod not bothered 🎉


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Re: Freedom of information

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Posted: 27.04.2019  ·  #30
I think I read somewhere that some of the councils in England were suggesting if you were parking in one of their car parks overnight you had to leave the blinds up to prove you were not sleeping!


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Re: Freedom of information

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Posted: 27.04.2019  ·  #31
I was falling asleep whilst driving so I stopped for a rest for safety reasons


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Re: Freedom of information

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Posted: 27.04.2019  ·  #32
I can sleep with the blinds up so does that mean I’m ok? 😝


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Freedom of information

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Posted: 27.04.2019  ·  #33
Quote by eirebus

I was falling asleep whilst driving so I stopped for a rest for safety reasons


The RSA are advising people with TV adds to do that very thing.

We had a couple of pints in the pub over there officer and sure there is no way we can legally drive anywhere until tomorrow is there.


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Re: Freedom of information

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Posted: 09.05.2019  ·  #34
New updates for the request 'Prohibition of Motorhomes camping overnight at the Commons, Donaghadee.'
=====================================================================================================

Mr Smith sent a follow up message to Ards and North Down Borough Council ( 8 May 2019)
"Thank you for your message of 7th May 2019. Is Ards and North Down Borough Council in a position to issue a partial response within the time fame?..."
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com…ing-897563

Ards and North Down Borough Council sent a response to Mr Smith ( 8 May 2019)
"Dear Mr Smith, Thank you for your request for information to Ards and North Down Borough Council in relation to overnight camping and motorhomes...."
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com…ng-1362216


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Re: Freedom of information

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Posted: 09.05.2019  ·  #35
It may be interesting if Mr Smith could obtain, under the freedom of information act, copies of all correspondence between campsite owners and the council about overnight motorhome parking in car parks and public places. :-)


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Re: Freedom of information

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Posted: 09.05.2019  ·  #36
Quote by Flipperdipper

It may be interesting if Mr Smith could obtain, under the freedom of information act, copies of all correspondence between campsite owners and the council about overnight motorhome parking in car parks and public places. :-)


I'm sure Mr Smith has a copy of all that correspondence as he probably instigated a lot of it!!!!!!!
He obviously has way too much time on his hands!


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Re: Freedom of information

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Posted: 09.05.2019  ·  #37
Quote by Ally

New updates for the request 'Prohibition of Motorhomes camping overnight at the Commons, Donaghadee.'
=====================================================================================================

Mr Smith sent a follow up message to Ards and North Down Borough Council ( 8 May 2019)
"Thank you for your message of 7th May 2019. Is Ards and North Down Borough Council in a position to issue a partial response within the time fame?..."
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com…ing-897563

Ards and North Down Borough Council sent a response to Mr Smith ( 8 May 2019)
"Dear Mr Smith, Thank you for your request for information to Ards and North Down Borough Council in relation to overnight camping and motorhomes...."
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com…ng-1362216


The old can of worms <_<


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Re: Freedom of information

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Posted: 09.05.2019  ·  #38
What I find is fascinating is that the council correspondence has a section at the bottom regarding the prohibiting of publishing and third party sharing.
I wonder if the same council were made aware of the linked page would Mr Smith get a return to sender response?


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Re: Freedom of information

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Posted: 10.05.2019  ·  #39
Greedy campsite sign:

 


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Re: Freedom of information

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Posted: 10.05.2019  ·  #40
That is an interesting way to put it


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