Replate Van Back to 3500kgs or Can 3850kgs GVW be Driven on B License Once Actual Weight Under 3500kgs?

 
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Replate Van Back to 3500kgs or Can 3850kgs GVW be Driven on B License Once Actual Weight Under 3500kgs?

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Posted: 08.06.2018  ·  #1
Hi all, 1st post of many I hope..... Been lurking a while..

I bought our first van a few weeks ago and it seems it's been replated to 3850kgs even though built to 3500kgs spec. The log book I was given stated permissible mass (F.1) of 3500. I've just received the log book in my own name and (F.1) is now 3850. I'm guessing a CVRT during the previous ownership spotted the 3850kgs and was picked up in the change of ownership.

I have only a B license.

What are my options here? Can I drive the van on my B license once the weight doesn't actually go over the 3500kgs or am I illegal as the van's permissible mass/GVW is over the 3500kgs?

Any help appreciated....
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Re: Replate Van Back to 3500kgs or Can 3850kgs GVW be Driven on B License Once Actual Weight Under 3500kgs?

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Posted: 08.06.2018  ·  #2
I can not be sure, but I suspect the present plated weight of 3850k is what counts in the eyes of the law. Driving without the right entitlement is serious and could lose you your license.
You could get it re-plated to 3.5 provided it is actually under the 3.5 on a weighbridge. The re-plating would have been done to increase permitted payload. You will need to be sure that the actual weight allows some payload, ie, fuel, water, passengers and everything else you need on tour. This is a tricky area and you may be stuck here if the van is close to 3.5 actual weight. Then it's a C needed or... sell the van?
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Re: Replate Van Back to 3500kgs or Can 3850kgs GVW be Driven on B License Once Actual Weight Under 3500kgs?

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Posted: 08.06.2018  ·  #3
Need a C licence over 3500KGS.......
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Re: Replate Van Back to 3500kgs or Can 3850kgs GVW be Driven on B License Once Actual Weight Under 3500kgs?

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Posted: 08.06.2018  ·  #4
At 3850kg plated weight you need at least a C1 licence.

Bring the GVW back the 3,500kg is only a paper exercise, the original specification would have been 3,500kg GVW and as davidrory said the upgrade would have been just to increase payload, a common enough activity.

The RSA has a form to be completed by an SQI (Suitably Qualified Individual) which includes a revision to the GVW.
See also http://www.svtech.co.uk/vehicles/motorhomes/ who are experts in the field and are very helpful, they are also recognised SQI's whose certification is accepted by The RSA.
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Re: Replate Van Back to 3500kgs or Can 3850kgs GVW be Driven on B License Once Actual Weight Under 3500kgs?

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Posted: 08.06.2018  ·  #5
Very much appreciate information guys.

From looking at previous threads it seems the previous owner had it weighed and came in under 3500kgs when loaded so I think I'm good there. I think my only option is to try and get it replated before our holiday begins on 3rd July or cancel it/sell and change the van.
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Re: Replate Van Back to 3500kgs or Can 3850kgs GVW be Driven on B License Once Actual Weight Under 3500kgs?

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Posted: 08.06.2018  ·  #6
Quote by baguette

At 3850kg plated weight you need at least a C1 licence.

Bring the GVW back the 3,500kg is only a paper exercise, the original specification would have been 3,500kg GVW and as davidrory said the upgrade would have been just to increase payload, a common enough activity.

The RSA has a form to be completed by an SQI (Suitably Qualified Individual) which includes a revision to the GVW.
See also http://www.svtech.co.uk/vehicles/motorhomes/ who are experts in the field and are very helpful, they are also recognised SQI's whose certification is accepted by The RSA.


In this case would I need to bring the van over to the UK for them to physically asses?
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Re: Replate Van Back to 3500kgs or Can 3850kgs GVW be Driven on B License Once Actual Weight Under 3500kgs?

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Posted: 08.06.2018  ·  #7
Quote by essjay


In this case would I need to bring the van over to the UK for them to physically asses?


No, it is a paper exercise only with SVtech.

Suggest you weigh van in fully loaded configuration, weighing each axle separately. Then call SVtech who are very helpful and talk them through what you want to do. They will advise what is possible. They will give you a cost prior to you making any commitment to proceed.

There is another UK company who do similar. I understand they are cheaper. I'll look them up.
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Re: Replate Van Back to 3500kgs or Can 3850kgs GVW be Driven on B License Once Actual Weight Under 3500kgs?

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Posted: 08.06.2018  ·  #8
£140 to down plate with sv tech 👍
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Re: Replate Van Back to 3500kgs or Can 3850kgs GVW be Driven on B License Once Actual Weight Under 3500kgs?

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Posted: 08.06.2018  ·  #9
Great info here, thanks.

Going out to my local authorised weigh bridge after lunch to get that box ticked. I've been in contact with SVTech also and I have their forms to complete once the van is weighed.
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Re: Replate Van Back to 3500kgs or Can 3850kgs GVW be Driven on B License Once Actual Weight Under 3500kgs?

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Posted: 08.06.2018  ·  #10
Quote by kabundi

Quote by essjay


In this case would I need to bring the van over to the UK for them to physically asses?


No, it is a paper exercise only with SVtech


In that case if you have a 3500kg Motorhome and have a license to drive over 3500kg, you would be safe going 350kg over weight?????
I doubt it somehow!
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Re: Replate Van Back to 3500kgs or Can 3850kgs GVW be Driven on B License Once Actual Weight Under 3500kgs?

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Posted: 08.06.2018  ·  #11
Quote by CHAUSSON


In that case if you have a 3500kg Motorhome and have a license to drive over 3500kg, you would be safe going 350kg over weight?????
I doubt it somehow!


Unfortunately, the answer is no, you would be summonsed with operating a vehicle in an overloaded condition, at a weight in excess of its plated GVW.
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Re: Replate Van Back to 3500kgs or Can 3850kgs GVW be Driven on B License Once Actual Weight Under 3500kgs?

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Posted: 08.06.2018  ·  #12
What ever chance you have of driving 3500kgs and a bit over the limit and getting caught, You can always use the excuse .....sorry Garda/RSA inspector etc i didnt realise i was over the limit,
Where as driving 3850kgs on car licence will definatly get you in bother, no pleading ignorence there
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Re: Replate Van Back to 3500kgs or Can 3850kgs GVW be Driven on B License Once Actual Weight Under 3500kgs?

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Posted: 08.06.2018  ·  #13
Is it as easy to plate up then? The plate on my motorhome is only 3400kg but I have a C1 licence.
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Re: Replate Van Back to 3500kgs or Can 3850kgs GVW be Driven on B License Once Actual Weight Under 3500kgs?

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Posted: 08.06.2018  ·  #14
Gav, You need to check if your tyres will take the new load, but the best way is to email or telephone SVtec and they will give you the yes or no. I used them to down plate my van, phoned them and was told to fill the forms they sent ,paid the dues and it was done.
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Re: Replate Van Back to 3500kgs or Can 3850kgs GVW be Driven on B License Once Actual Weight Under 3500kgs?

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Posted: 08.06.2018  ·  #15
Quote by gavster1

Is it as easy to plate up then? The plate on my motorhome is only 3400kg but I have a C1 licence.


You may need upgraded suspension / brakes. It's unlikely that it's been downrated to 3400, they'd surely have plated it at 3500. A quick way to suss it out would be to check the axel weights, if they add up to a figure close to the MAM then it's unlikely you'll have any room to uprate without upgrading something.
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Re: Replate Van Back to 3500kgs or Can 3850kgs GVW be Driven on B License Once Actual Weight Under 3500kgs?

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Posted: 08.06.2018  ·  #16
Quote by nilrac

Gav, You need to check if your tyres will take the new load, but the best way is to email or telephone SVtec and they will give you the yes or no. I used them to down plate my van, phoned them and was told to fill the forms they sent ,paid the dues and it was done.


Did it take long for the new reg cert to be issued?

I'll get all the forms away on Monday to SVTech but then I'll need to find/fill the RSA form and I presume send back to Shannon.
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Re: Replate Van Back to 3500kgs or Can 3850kgs GVW be Driven on B License Once Actual Weight Under 3500kgs?

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Posted: 08.06.2018  ·  #17
It's a bloody mine field.
Unfortunately to go up or down weight on the VIN plate will not be legal until a suitable qualified person fills in the right document with quoted public indemnity insurance for their engineering opinion.
Simply that means for each bit of paper that they produce, they paid an insurance premium to cover future claims on their opinion.
Anyone can buy a strip of printed aluminium and a set of number stampers/ engraving pens.
Unfortunately for you as the driver, standing on the side of the road with your hat in your hands looking at a law enforcement officer pleading ignorance means that you have been sold a pig and poke.
Be very careful.
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Re: Replate Van Back to 3500kgs or Can 3850kgs GVW be Driven on B License Once Actual Weight Under 3500kgs?

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Posted: 09.06.2018  ·  #18
Quote by essjay

Quote by nilrac

Gav, You need to check if your tyres will take the new load, but the best way is to email or telephone SVtec and they will give you the yes or no. I used them to down plate my van, phoned them and was told to fill the forms they sent ,paid the dues and it was done.


Did it take long for the new reg cert to be issued?

I'll get all the forms away on Monday to SVTech but then I'll need to find/fill the RSA form and I presume send back to Shannon.


It would be a good idea to send the RSA's own forms to SVTech too.

If the motorhome is currently over 3,500kg and it's either being down-plated or up-plated you need to send the HCV form.
If the motorhome is currently not over 3,500kg and it is either being down-plated or up plated you need to send the LCV form.

Both forms can be found at the end of the CVR Testing Manuals, see righthand column HERE.
For the LCV form print off pages 149, 150 , 151
For the HCV form print off pages 209, 210, 211
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Re: Replate Van Back to 3500kgs or Can 3850kgs GVW be Driven on B License Once Actual Weight Under 3500kgs?

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Posted: 09.06.2018  ·  #19
Gav, it took about a week and Sv then sent me a new plastic plate with the amended weights on. I then sent the log book to get that amended. I cant say about your regs as I was dealing with UK but I am sure they will be similar.
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Re: Replate Van Back to 3500kgs or Can 3850kgs GVW be Driven on B License Once Actual Weight Under 3500kgs?

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Posted: 09.06.2018  ·  #20
Gav, forgot to add if you are on 215/70/15 and you replace them with 225/70/15 you gain an extra 240 kilo carrying capacity per axle. This size also fits transits ,I have them on the front of my boxer.
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Re: Replate Van Back to 3500kgs or Can 3850kgs GVW be Driven on B License Once Actual Weight Under 3500kgs?

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Posted: 09.06.2018  ·  #21
Thanks all.

So I had a look and the stamped plate on the van is 3500kgs. The Irish registration certificate under the previous owner was 3500kgs (from 2014) and the 2013, 2014 and 2015 CVRT's have 3500kgs documented. I don't have the 2016 or 2017 but do have the 2018 CVRT which has 3850kgs.

Perhaps there might have been an admin mistake made by a CVRT testing centre in 2016 that logged the van as 3850kgs and subsequently in 2017 and 2018. I'm thinking that somehow fed into the change of ownership process and the registration cert was returned to me with 3850kgs.

The van almost fully loaded is 3320kgs from the weighbridge. I'll give Shannon a call on Monday to see what my options are.
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Re: Replate Van Back to 3500kgs or Can 3850kgs GVW be Driven on B License Once Actual Weight Under 3500kgs?

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Posted: 09.06.2018  ·  #22
Quote by essjay

Thanks all.

So I had a look and the stamped plate on the van is 3500kgs. The Irish registration certificate under the previous owner was 3500kgs (from 2014) and the 2013, 2014 and 2015 CVRT's have 3500kgs documented. I don't have the 2016 or 2017 but do have the 2018 CVRT which has 3850kgs.

Perhaps there might have been an admin mistake made by a CVRT testing centre in 2016 that logged the van as 3850kgs and subsequently in 2017 and 2018. I'm thinking that somehow fed into the change of ownership process and the registration cert was returned to me with 3850kgs.

The van almost fully loaded is 3320kgs from the weighbridge. I'll give Shannon a call on Monday to see what my options are.



Sounds like a f**k up from someone else, if you're weighing in 3320 fully loaded, downplating to 3500 is a no brainer. I'm on the other side of that connundrum, I'll never be overloaded by axel weights but by MAM I'm in trouble if I have a big dinner. From the factory, my van had a paperwork upgrade to 3850kgs as an option and the base chassis is 4250kg. I think I need a C1 license soon.
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Re: Replate Van Back to 3500kgs or Can 3850kgs GVW be Driven on B License Once Actual Weight Under 3500kgs?

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Posted: 10.06.2018  ·  #23
Quote by essjay

Thanks all.

So I had a look and the stamped plate on the van is 3500kgs.


Is this the plate fitted by the converter? The converter plate is the relevant one as it will be the last one fitted.

My van for example has three plates fitted

Fiat for the original cab.
Alko for the chassis.
Rapido for the habitation conversion.

In this case the Rapido one is the relevant one
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Re: Replate Van Back to 3500kgs or Can 3850kgs GVW be Driven on B License Once Actual Weight Under 3500kgs?

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Posted: 10.06.2018  ·  #24
Tbh the plate under the bonnet looks too new for a 1996 van so it's been replaced in the last couple of years I'd say. Even the pop rivets are still shiny.
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Re: Replate Van Back to 3500kgs or Can 3850kgs GVW be Driven on B License Once Actual Weight Under 3500kgs?

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Posted: 10.06.2018  ·  #25
If you know the UK reg no, you can check on line for the last time tax and mot, this will give you the last details held . You will get the gross GVW when it was last taxed in UK. All you have to do is put in --car tax and mot check- in your search engine.
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Re: Replate Van Back to 3500kgs or Can 3850kgs GVW be Driven on B License Once Actual Weight Under 3500kgs?

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Posted: 11.06.2018  ·  #26
Just spoke to Shannon and they said there's nothing they can do and to get in contact with the test centre that changed the weight in 2016 or perhaps get a new CVRT (current one is a month old) and and make sure they change the weight on it down to 3500kgs.
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Re: Replate Van Back to 3500kgs or Can 3850kgs GVW be Driven on B License Once Actual Weight Under 3500kgs?

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Posted: 11.06.2018  ·  #27
AFAIK the tester at a CVRT centre can enter/change the GVW in the RSA's CoVIS system and that feeds through to the NVDF (National Vehicle and Driver File) from which the Registration Certificate is printed.

This would explain how the 'new' weight appeared on the new cert issued to a new owner.

If the above is true, that a tester can enter/change the GVW, it makes a mockery of the requirement that documentation to support a change in GVW is required, it would seem that all is required is to acquire a new plate with the desired weights and pop rivet it on.

:-/ :-/
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Re: Replate Van Back to 3500kgs or Can 3850kgs GVW be Driven on B License Once Actual Weight Under 3500kgs?

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Posted: 11.06.2018  ·  #28
Quote by baguette

AFAIK the tester at a CVRT centre can enter/change the GVW in the RSA's CoVIS system and that feeds through to the NVDF (National Vehicle and Driver File) from which the Registration Certificate is printed.

This would explain how the 'new' weight appeared on the new cert issued to a new owner.

If the above is true, that a tester can enter/change the GVW, it makes a mockery of the requirement that documentation to support a change in GVW is required, it would seem that all is required is to acquire a new plate with the desired weights and pop rivet it on.

:-/ :-/

Totally agree.
Most testers are only technicians not auto engineers / mechanics.
It is no wonder that Shannon was8ed their hands of Body building Type Approval and hired the NASI to do the work. As I previously posted, there is a defined process for commercial trucks, weight and running mass calculations.
While the refitting of the plates may be accepted here is this country, vosa or one of their European equivalent will only except the original manufacturer's plate.
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Re: Replate Van Back to 3500kgs or Can 3850kgs GVW be Driven on B License Once Actual Weight Under 3500kgs?

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Posted: 12.06.2018  ·  #29
Quote by Thorn123
........................................
While the refitting of the plates may be accepted here is this country, vosa or one of their European equivalent will only except the original manufacturer's plate.
Malcolm


Not true, See Here
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Re: Replate Van Back to 3500kgs or Can 3850kgs GVW be Driven on B License Once Actual Weight Under 3500kgs?

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Posted: 12.06.2018  ·  #30
Quote by baguette


Not true, See Here


Fair enough baguette.
From working in the trucking game for the last 15 years, I have seen some messes caused by changing plated weights. Also some of traffic weight regulations in the UK are ahead of here in Ireland.
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Re: Replate Van Back to 3500kgs or Can 3850kgs GVW be Driven on B License Once Actual Weight Under 3500kgs?

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Posted: 13.06.2018  ·  #31
See copy and past of email sent to Head of Vehicle Standards at the RSA last night.
Let's see the outcome.

Subject ......... Motor Caravan Change of GVW


I am writing to you in connection with the above issue which is currently causing some with motorhomes a lot of difficulties.
Before departing to take up his position at Bus Eireann Tom McHale confirmed to us by email that SvTech documentation and the associated new plate with regard to uprating and down plating of motorhomes would be acceptable to The RSA as the basis to change the vehicles GVW.

However, in recent times significant difficulties are being encountered by owners wishing to down plate their motorhomes. It appears that no fixed procedure has been circulated and varying statements are being issued by testing centres and your own office, which recently issued form VRTCONVSQI August 2011 on foot of an enquiry for the documents required for a down plating exercise. Form VRTCONVSQI August 2011 has no provision for a change of Technically Permissible Maximum Laden Mass (GVW).

Resulting from my ongoing campaigning that motorhomes and their drivers are treated appropriately by various authorities in Ireland I get regular requests for information regarding the various issues confronting owners.
In order that I can respond in an informed way on the above issue, would you be kind enough to forward to me a copy of the correct procedure to be followed by owners who seek to uprate or down plate their motorhome.

Having familiarised yourself with the company SvTech and their accreditations will you reconfirm their services in relation to uprating and down plating of motorhomes is still acceptable to the RSA.

The current situation frustrates many who are familiar with the simplicity of the process in The UK.

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Re: Replate Van Back to 3500kgs or Can 3850kgs GVW be Driven on B License Once Actual Weight Under 3500kgs?

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Posted: 21.06.2018  ·  #32
Right an update on the story so far - I'm nearly beaten at this stage. Really wish the previous owner had made me aware of this weight issue instead of just passing it off to the next owner. I have a very upset wife here

Had the van weighed, all good under 3500kgs

RSA (who have been brilliant) sent me out to the local CVRT centre (who have also been brilliant) to check and photograph the "newly" added plates, record the plate serial number etc which I believe they are tracing back to whoever put them there.

After that the RSA spoke to Shannon and they hatched a plan that if the van received a new CVRT test and and the weight updated in COVIS then that should feed through to the NVDIF system that Shannon uses and I'd be able to get a new registration cert. So I'd have a new CVRT disc with 3500kgs and not 3850kgs.

So far it's cost me to have the van weighed, inspected and now a CVRT test.

It failed the CVRT even though it had passed one in May (5/6 weeks ago).

Part of the chassis needs welding (I thought he said something about the battery tray) which requires an engineers report plus the parking brake cable was "hanging off".
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Re: Replate Van Back to 3500kgs or Can 3850kgs GVW be Driven on B License Once Actual Weight Under 3500kgs?

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Posted: 21.06.2018  ·  #33
Thanks for the update essjay.

It's good to get confirmation that as I suspected the CVRT tester can enter a GVW weight change into the CoVIS (Commercial Vehicle Information System) and that feeds through to the NVDF (National Vehicle and Driver File).
That means that when 'Shannon' issue a new Certificate of Registration it will have the new GVW.
All very simple, but why would a special/new CVRT be needed, why can't the CoVIS be just updated without a test being undertaken.

BTW, others have reported to me that they have been told that the Revenue/VRT at Rosslare need to be included in the process, can't understand why. Has anybody mentioned this requirement to you essjay.

:-| :o :P I love the idea that RSA spoke to Shannon and they hatched a plan it confirms they haven't a bulls notion of how to manage a GVW change and have no procedure in place for such 🇧🇭
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Re: Replate Van Back to 3500kgs or Can 3850kgs GVW be Driven on B License Once Actual Weight Under 3500kgs?

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Posted: 21.06.2018  ·  #34
Not out of the woods yet.... Also there's a couple of things I've observed.

When talking to the CVRT centre they mentioned that the RSA had given them "permission" to update CoVIS. This would indicate they can update it but maybe to do that the RSA need to enable that option on the system. Only a guess on my part. Then again it might have just been an email saying "you are ok to change that on the system".

The RSA mentioned that they needed a "new certificate" in order for the weight to be changed. I'm wondering does this mean a new test has to be initiated on their system where the 3500kgs get's logged and so on a new CVRT pass cert and disc (the weight displayed on the disc etc).

All that said, when they put it through the test today I observed that 3850kgs was still showing on the fail sheet even though they had processed it as a light vehicle. I highlighted that and they scratched their head so I might not be over the hurdle yet. They didn't expect to see 3850kgs on the fail sheet.
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Re: Replate Van Back to 3500kgs or Can 3850kgs GVW be Driven on B License Once Actual Weight Under 3500kgs?

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Posted: 21.06.2018  ·  #35
And no, no-one mentioned a word about Rosslare.

I have to say both the RSA and CVRT centre have been more then helpful.
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Re: Replate Van Back to 3500kgs or Can 3850kgs GVW be Driven on B License Once Actual Weight Under 3500kgs?

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Posted: 22.06.2018  ·  #36
Quote by essjay

And no, no-one mentioned a word about Rosslare.

I have to say both the RSA and CVRT centre have been more then helpful.


Yes, there are very helpful individuals out there. However, all the helpful people in the world are no good if there is no written procedure in place for them to follow.

As we all know only too well, if you don't have a route plan you will end up anywhere, more than likely not where you wanted to arrive.
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