Adding a second step switch on the dash

 
 
 
 
 
 
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Adding a second step switch on the dash

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Posted: 09.06.2018  ·  #1
A friend is after upgrading to a 2010 Burstner 821i and it does not have an automatic step,
Im wondering has anybody successfully wired a second switch on the dash,
I had a look and its not a simple switch, it reverses the polarity and has me stumped.

All help appreciated
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Re: Adding a second step switch on the dash

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Posted: 09.06.2018  ·  #2
I have a few green ones on board at the moment, but tomorrow with a claerer head I will have a think.
Malcolm
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Re: Adding a second step switch on the dash

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Posted: 10.06.2018  ·  #3
Quote by mad max

A friend is after upgrading to a 2010 Burstner 821i and it does not have an automatic step,
Im wondering has anybody successfully wired a second switch on the dash,
I had a look and its not a simple switch, it reverses the polarity and has me stumped.

All help appreciated


If you only need it to retract from the dash, a simple on off switch should do the job. Send the power to the pole on motor that turns it the correct way. Just make sure to get a switch you need to hold to engage, so that when you let go normal service is resumed at main switch
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Re: Adding a second step switch on the dash

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Posted: 10.06.2018  ·  #4
Tried that David,
The rocker switch installed by Burstner has 4 poles and throws the polarity to the opposite,
I tried to wire a push button but didnt want to chance anything that i wasnt sure of because the multimeters findings,
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Re: Adding a second step switch on the dash

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Posted: 10.06.2018  ·  #5
Can be done.
The 2 wires leaving the switch going to the motor need to be passed through another 6 pole switch (the original switch may only have 4 wires but it is 6 pole) and this in turn will provide a 2 way reverse polarity circuit, in essence you are again reversing the polarity a second time on the wires to the motor. The only downside is that the original switch may be reversed in operation, that is, the step may be in/out on both positions depending on the new dash switch setting.
Hard to explain, but not difficult to do....... I’ll try and do up a diagram to show how it’s done.

Edited:
The first diaghram shows how it is probably wired at the moment. The switch has 2 positions that reverse the polarity and send the voltage off to the motor and reverses the direction of rotation as required.
 


This diaghram shows how to insert a second switch. You route the power from the original switch from the side that goes to the motor and fed it into the new switch as shown. the power then is sent back to the motor with another 2 wires with the polarity reversed as required. So, to route the wiring to the new switch on the dash will require 4 core wire of sufficent ability to handle the current.
 


Note the switches shown only have 4 wires in total going to them, but they are 6 pole and the jumpers are shown in the switches connecting their opposites in order to create the ability to reverse the polarity.
I havent shown fuses/breakers or other associated bits in the sketches for clarity. Also, the motor will have a control unit with inputs from limit switches and associated control, not shown either
Hope that goes in some way to explain it.
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Re: Adding a second step switch on the dash

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Posted: 10.06.2018  ·  #6
Jon,
Thanks a million for your detailed explinatiin and drawings,
You are correct with the original switch having 4 poles but i have been told that it switches internally (similat to the bridge shown in your drawing)
I have done what you have done adding the second 6 pole excepy + & - are in the middle (same as original switch), if that makes any differdnce,

When I add the second switch and unplug original switch the new switch works but when original is connected again it will not allow new switch do anything,

Hope im explaining this properly,
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Re: Adding a second step switch on the dash

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Posted: 10.06.2018  ·  #7
+&- need to be on the outer poles with bridge, therefore centre poles become reversible ....
yes, could be wired with +/- on centre poles with 4 outer poles connected in crossover to each switch, but this necessaries replacing original switch with dedicated 6 way pole switch and removal of bridges.
good fun these 12v systems 😝
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Re: Adding a second step switch on the dash

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Posted: 10.06.2018  ·  #8
So if i use centre poles for feed to motor and outer poles bridged in x with + & - that should do the job?
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Re: Adding a second step switch on the dash

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Posted: 10.06.2018  ·  #9
Quote by mad max

So if i use centre poles for feed to motor and outer poles bridged in x with + & - that should do the job?


If you cut wires from original switch to motor and insert the second switch as per the diaghram it will work.
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Re: Adding a second step switch on the dash

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Posted: 10.06.2018  ·  #10
Thanks for that Jon,
Ill give it a shot👍👍
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Re: Adding a second step switch on the dash

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Posted: 11.06.2018  ·  #11
More on this,

Tried to do as you instructed Jon but couldnt as original switch would only accept +&- in middle poles only

Would getting a 6 pole original switch be the way to go ?
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Re: Adding a second step switch on the dash

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Posted: 11.06.2018  ·  #12
If you break the two wires leaving the original switch and feed them into the second switch as shown it will reverse the polarity for you.
Don’t touch the original switch, break the wires leaving it going to the motor, feed them into the new switch as per diaghram and it will reverse thevpolarity too.
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Re: Adding a second step switch on the dash

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Posted: 11.06.2018  ·  #13
Tried that but wouldnt work,
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Re: Adding a second step switch on the dash

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Posted: 11.06.2018  ·  #14
Is the original switch momentary or latched.
Do you hold it till the step goes out? Or switch it to out/in ?

Trying to establish if power is supplied to the motor at all times and controlled by limit switches.
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Re: Adding a second step switch on the dash

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Posted: 11.06.2018  ·  #15
Could it be that there is 0V on the centre contacts of the first switch, in the resting central position, so perhaps there is no voltage to the second switch to power the step..
Consider supplying the second switch from the left contacts i.e. 12V supply.... i.e. 2 switches in parallel.

Might blow the fuse though if the two switches are operated simultaneously, i.e. one switch is raising the step and at the same time, the other is lowering the step.
Could use a relay in the circuit to prevent this I guess.

Just thinking............... Could be wrong
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Re: Adding a second step switch on the dash

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Posted: 11.06.2018  ·  #16
I have been watching this one.
While I haven't worked on an electric step, I have a reasonable understanding of 12 volt wiring.
JFF diagrams mades sense, but the two limiting switches are the puzzle to solve now. There would have to be 2 limiting switches because one is needed to stop the motor for extending the step and the other one is for retraction.
Your rocker/wall switch is the command signal to start the system but your limiting switches are the controlling switches for stopping or restarting the direction of the motor. For example to extend the step your motor may turn clockwise and to retract the step your motor may turn anti clockwise but without see the motor working , it maybe opposite.
To get a 12 volt motor to run in opposite directional rotation, you basically swap the positive and negative wires on the motor, (reverse polarity ). We do this everyday on a cordless drill by push a button from left or right.
In a simple system one limiting switches is positive controlled and the other limiting switch would be negative controlled and I say this because when the reverse polarity command is sent the circuit is completed again, but the motor changes its turning direction.
Just my thoughts,
Malcolm
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Re: Adding a second step switch on the dash

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Posted: 11.06.2018  ·  #17
@ Jjf its momentry keep it pressed until the step goes in or out,

@Joe i tried mirroring the switches, that didnt work as only one switch or the other worked,
Then i followed Jjf's diagram above
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Re: Adding a second step switch on the dash

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Posted: 11.06.2018  ·  #18
@ Malcolm,
It has me lost at the moment,
But I got a feeling we will crack it between us 🤓
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Re: Adding a second step switch on the dash

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Posted: 12.06.2018  ·  #19
Enough thoughts floating in on this subject, without another, will just say this, from looking at the diagram unless the first switch is operated there will be no power at second switch, therefore it can’t work, when first switch is in central position the motor is not energized therefore no power to second switch. I’d say the limit switches just break the power to the motor, upon reaching its limit
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Re: Adding a second step switch on the dash

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Posted: 12.06.2018  ·  #20
Quote by Daffysparks

I’d say the limit switches just break the power to the motor, upon reaching its limit


If the switch is let go the step stops,
So you can move the step half way in /out if if you wish,
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Re: Adding a second step switch on the dash

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Posted: 12.06.2018  ·  #21
That being the case would a simple momentary switch on dash to retract it not do, or do you want to extend step from dash as well
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Re: Adding a second step switch on the dash

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Posted: 12.06.2018  ·  #22
All thats needed is to retract only,
But with the reversing of the polarity stops me using a push button as far as I know,

From my findings with multi meter the original switch has 4 poles (but has 2 bridges internally to reverse the polarity) +&- go to centre poles and outer (or top and bottom) poles go to motor,
When i put the meter on poles i have 13v in all 3 poles except the(-) which is earth

Putting momentary switch on either wire leading to the motor dosent work as that was the first thing i tried,
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Re: Adding a second step switch on the dash

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Posted: 12.06.2018  ·  #23
Quote by mad max

@ Jjf its momentry keep it pressed until the step goes in or out,

@Joe i tried mirroring the switches, that didnt work as only one switch or the other worked,
Then i followed Jjf's diagram above


And there lies the problem.
If it’s momentary then no power remains to the motor when switch is released... I wrongly assumed the power remained in the circuit when switched.

I still can be done ! ..... just need to establish the circuit state when switched either way and design the switching from there..... (eg) is the extension/retraction function performed by the limit switches doing the polarity reversal side or is the original switch etc.
12v systems are pretty straightforward, understanding the operation of the original functions is paramount first.
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Re: Adding a second step switch on the dash

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Posted: 12.06.2018  ·  #24
Quote by mad max

All thats needed is to retract only,
But with the reversing of the polarity stops me using a push button as far as I know,

From my findings with multi meter the original switch has 4 poles (but has 2 bridges internally to reverse the polarity) +&- go to centre poles and outer (or top and bottom) poles go to motor,
When i put the meter on poles i have 13v in all 3 poles except the(-) which is earth

Putting momentary switch on either wire leading to the motor dosent work as that was the first thing i tried,

JJfis correct in that it still can be done, but if retract only, can a double pole push to make switch with your positive and negative running through it to your motor wired in the correct way to operate in retract mode not work. When you press button it powers motor to retract. When you let go you just have two dead ends going back to the switch. Wouldn’t matter the polarity. Only way you could have an issue is if you pressed this dash switch at the same time as motor was running to let step out. A smaller fuse on your new cable would stop you blowing the main step fuse in this unlikely scenario
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Re: Adding a second step switch on the dash

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Posted: 12.06.2018  ·  #25
That would work . Daffy
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Re: Adding a second step switch on the dash

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Posted: 12.06.2018  ·  #26
The poles running to the motor from the switch seem to have 13v in them all the time, the only time the meter drops to 0.6v is for the second or two it takes the step to go in or out,
Then it sits back at 13v (solar panel has batteries well charged yesterday😉)
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Re: Adding a second step switch on the dash

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Posted: 12.06.2018  ·  #27
The other option is to run a push switch from the dash to the motor and fit 2 diodes on the new negative and positive wires before you join into the motor. Also fit 2 more diodes on the rocker switch side of the joint.
This way current will go in the right direction at all times and each circuit is independent of each other.
My only fear is that the motor earths are ran through the limiting switches not directly from the rocker switch.
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Re: Adding a second step switch on the dash

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Posted: 12.06.2018  ·  #28
 


A slight modification of JJF's diagram. Just suggesting........ Apologies for the quality of the drawing..
Top switch representing the existing switch
Bottom representing new dash switch.
If you want retract only to work from the dash ...omit the cross jumper links on the dash switch.

Fuse should be added (slightly lower current rating than the existing step fuse, would be ideal) in line with the supply to the New switch, so that if one person presses the "out" option at the door switch and a second person presses the "In" (or retract) option on the dash switch the fuse will blow.
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Re: Adding a second step switch on the dash

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Posted: 12.06.2018  ·  #29
Some options there alright lads,
Thanks👍
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Re: Adding a second step switch on the dash

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Posted: 12.06.2018  ·  #30
My expert opinion...

Cut the red one!
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Re: Adding a second step switch on the dash

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Posted: 12.06.2018  ·  #31
Quote by Ally

My expert opinion...

Cut the red one!


5
4
3
2
.
.
.
Wrong one 😂😂
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Re: Adding a second step switch on the dash

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Posted: 12.06.2018  ·  #32
 

....
See Troubleshooting section..
https://www.rvtechlibrary.com/exterior/kwikee_svc_manual.pdf
...
Wiring Installation Instructions
https://www.lci1.com/assets/co…421225.pdf
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Re: Adding a second step switch on the dash

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Posted: 12.06.2018  ·  #33
Quote by JoeO'S

 


A slight modification of JJF's diagram. Just suggesting........ Apologies for the quality of the drawing..
Top switch representing the existing switch
Bottom representing new dash switch.
If you want retract only to work from the dash ...omit the cross jumper links on the dash switch.

Fuse should be added (slightly lower current rating than the existing step fuse, would be ideal) in line with the supply to the New switch, so that if one person presses the "out" option at the door switch and a second person presses the "In" (or retract) option on the dash switch the fuse will blow.


I think that the problem here is you could have a short across the switch as each pole can become +/- while the other is the opposite.... but your idea of a lower rated fuse sorts that issue.

Hymer524 schematic will work using a 87/87a relay, the only thing different I would do is to use two relays to obtain the polarity reversal in order to eliminate the possibility of a short..... but to be sure we need to establish how the polarity remains when original switch is released..... without that info it is difficult to design the circuit. I have done it often for tail lifts on vans...... but seldom do two be the same.
Really need the vehicle to do the measurements and work from there.

Good craic this wiring !
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Re: Adding a second step switch on the dash

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Posted: 12.06.2018  ·  #34
Ill do more research hopefully tomorrow evening with fhe meter and report back.

Thanks to all for info and drawings etc, its appreciated
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Re: Adding a second step switch on the dash

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Posted: 13.06.2018  ·  #35
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Adding a second step switch on the dash

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Posted: 13.06.2018  ·  #36
Quote by Blag

It's times like these that I'm glad I have one of these. :lol:

 



Kevin, you're a bad man. :shock:
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